Tuesday, October 02, 2007

Debunking more myths

I fear that if BC continues winning you’ll hear more and more about Jags winning with TOB’s players. It pisses me off and is unfair to the current staff and a convenient crutch of the new NC State coaches. This article by David Glenn sparked this post, but I am sure there is more TOB-Jags spin to come. Let me reiterate: talent and experience explain part of BC’s success and part of NC State’s failures, but not all of it. Coaching style and use of your players is as important.

First let’s poke a few holes in the cupboard is full theory and TOB won because of strict roster development. Jags inherited a very good team, but not all the starters are 23-year old Seniors. Take a look at the starters for the Bowling Green game. You have two true freshman and a Sophomore on the offense and three Sophomores (two of them true) starting on the defense. There are also numerous underclassmen scattered throughout the depth chart. To say the 2003 class was all by design doesn’t jibe with TOB’s actions before and after. He played seven true freshmen last season. He played four true freshmen in his very first year at BC. Redshirting is a good policy but never a mandate.

Jags is also working around TOB’s inability to find a dominant pass rushing after Kiwi, a very thin backfield and an overrated offensive line unit. Next year Jags will have to deal with TOB misfires in the 2005 and 2006 QB recruiting. Every staff in the country deals with holes. The new staff has done a good job of finding their own talent (true freshmen and Jags recruits Castanzo, Momah, Gause and Newman) and coaching up guys who weren’t starting for TOB (Tennant, Ramsey).

TOB can whine about injuries, but Jags lost Brian Toal, B.J. Raji and Jeff Smith all before the season even started.

The second part of the success is giving players schemes and gameplans in which they can succeed. Jags first good move: keeping on Spaz. The continuity on defense has been obvious and made the transition much easier. He then went out and found a good teacher and play caller in Steve Logan. As much as the defense looks the same, the difference in how BC approaches offense is obvious to even the most casual viewer.

BC is 5-0 and in position to do something big in part because of the players but also because Jags has been very shrewd in what he changed and what he didn’t change. You will find very few BC fans that believe we would be 5-0 now under TOB.

I don’t know as much about the NC State roster or even the game to game decisions that may be hindering the Wolfpack. I do know from reading that TOB is blaming the lack of talent and the adjustment to his system. This wouldn’t be the first time he wasted talent in order to move to a system. It may pay off in Raleigh and Jags may not be able to duplicate TOB’s long-term success, but the wins and losses of the 2007 season can be attributed to the current coaches of both schools and no one else.

17 comments:

Big Jack Krack said...

I don't know for sure, but I think TOB will have had a better time installing his plan at BC than he will have at NC State.

The two situations may be different enough that the TOB/Bible approach won't quite cut it in Raleigh.

I wish the guy no evil - just glad he's gone. (He was good for BC - BC was good for him - both sides reached their peak several years ago - time to move on, etc)

I'm really enjoying the Jags/Logan/Spaz/McGovern/Bicknell, JR. and company approach right now. Don't know how long it will last - so let's enjoy it and be glad for the players. We're proud of them and we're proud to be BC.

I'm not looking in the rear view mirror.

ToTheHeights said...

A interesting stat to look at would be first down conversions after a holding penalty. I feel like this would tremendously favor Jags.

Holding penalties for TOB were a death sentence and would have definitely cost us the Georgia Tech game.


I also cannot imagine TOB beating Wake after we were down by 14 in the first few minutes.

Big Jack Krack said...

I agree - that would be interesting. I was at the Georgia Tech game, and the holding penalties were definitely an irritant - but we had the feeling that they could be (and in many cases were) overcome. Not so with TOB teams.

I don't really know, but my impression of TOB was that he never mounted a comeback on anyone, having been down by two touchdowns.

Against Wake I wasn't worried when it happened, because I thought we had plenty of time and a new, aggressive offense. With TOB, if he got behind the defending ACC Champs by two quick scores, I also believe that BC never would have pulled it off.

matthew2 said...

All of this speculation about whether TOB would have come back form a 14-0 deficit isn't really fair. Maybe TOB wouldn't have been down 14-0... you can't say for sure, but must look at both sides.

Last year we were down against a ranked clemson team 10-0, 17-7, 24-17, and 33-27 before winning in OT. The following week we were trailing at the end of the first and second quarters before beating BYU in OT also. And who can forget the bowl game where we erased our second 8 point deficit of the game halfway through the final quarter of our bowl victory against Navy.

Just going back to the two years before, two notable games were wake forest in 2005 (rain soaked/matty ryan comeback) and notre dame in 2004. Against wake we were down 17-0! and then 30-21 with three minutes left. AT a ranked ND, we were down 20-7 at half, and also 23-17 with less than a minute left.

Now I know there can be arguments about why we were behind (poor starting QB choice) or if we should have been behind at all against a weak team (wake in '05), but these were still legitimate comebacks. Jack cites that we were behind the "defending ACC champs" this year, but I argue that some of the teams I have listed are better than Wake's squad this year.

If TOB had started this season down 14-0 like that, you can be sure of only one thing -- there would have been a lot of moaning and groaning and complaining.

Eagle in Brighton said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Eagle in Brighton said...

Pat Forde is buying BC for the long haul...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=
forde_pat&id=3045786&sportCat=ncf

matthew2 said...

matty ryan is also climbing in the espn heisman predictions.... the featured voter has him 2nd!

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/heisman07/index

let's just keep winning....

Viglioan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Viglioan said...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=forde_pat&id=3045786&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab4pos1

looks like we might have to proven them all wrong...

Big Jack Krack said...

Matthew made some great points. In fact, I was at that Notre Dame Game, and took great pride in letting the ND fans nearby know that their lead was only temporary - that we would win 21 to 20 - and later 24 to 23.

That comeback against Wake in the rain was unbelievable - was it Challenger who caught that pass just barely in bounds? Well, that was a desperate situation, and they had to turn the dogs loose.

So my memory perhaps has become a bit clouded when I speak about TOB.

That's why I want to look ahead. I prefer to remember TOB in the light that he was good for us and we were good for him - best of luck to both.

Thanks for setting the record straight, Matthew.

Awhile back, as we prepared for Army, I reminisced about the game in 1964.

I mentioned that if Eddie Foley had been inserted into the game sooner (replacing Larry Marzetti) we may have won the game. One gentleman disagreed.

I would like to say that Larry was everything that BC wanted in a quarterback - great guy, student-athlete, gentleman, etc. What I was trying to say was for that particular game, down 19 to 0 at West Point, Foley had the stronger arm. That's what we needed - much like Matty Ryan against Wake. For the record, Foley led the team to two quick scores and was driving for the third, as time ran out. Larry was probably the right starting quarterback.

Eagle93 said...

Hey Jack, thanks for the comments. I posted the comment about Larry Marzetti -- it was more tongue in cheek than anything, as he's my dad.

Best,

Chris Marzetti
BC '93

Big Jack Krack said...

Hey Chris (Seattleeagle) Class of '93 (my daughter Jane was '92) nice to meet you.

I hope your dad is fine and enjoying good health. I'm sure he was/is successful in his chosen career. How is your uncle Joe? I hope all the Marzettis are doing well.

You're in Seattle, I'm in Columbia, SC (when I'm not travelling to NC, NY, NJ, CT, RI or DC or other parts of the U.S.)and we're talking on an Atlanta-based blog about BC - this is great.

Thank you Eagle in Atlanta for making this possible.

Jack '68

Eagle93 said...

Larry's an attorney in Northern Virginia / Maryland, and getting ready to retire. Joe's still in Boston and attends every home football, basketball, hockey game. Both his kids went to BC too. I'll pass along the well-wishes.

And yes, great blog, great discussions, great community!

Go BC!!

Uncle Mike said...

It's always interesting to ruminate on coaching, but never underestimate the overwhelming impact of an elite QB. Enjoy this last year while you've got him, because every facet of the offense and offensive coaching will look dramatically worse as soon as he's gone.

Take a look at NC State (post-Rivers) and Notre Dame (post-Quinn) before you assume that the future only holds continued improvement.

MakAWolfie said...

It sounds to me like BC's being a little ungracious. What did BC achieve in football before TOB's 9 straight bowl appearances? Time will only tell what he's capable of doing down in Raleigh, and what Jag is capable of doing in Bean town. And don't act like God himself could install a brand new scheme and turn a 3-9 team (that was one of the most penalized in the country last year) into a winning team in just one year(we all know typical football players aren't the brightest). Don't criticize the guy who turned BC into what it is today. HE built your offense and left "his best team" in Boston to pursue a career he couldn't have there (i.e. Better fans/college football atmosphere, facilities, recruiting pool) and if he was still around, you would still love him. I wish BC the best of luck this year, as i would any ACC team but don't be bitter.

jj_2003 said...

MakAWolfie said..."It sounds to me like BC's being a little ungracious. What did BC achieve in football before TOB's 9 straight bowl appearances?"

OK, I'll play along. O'Brien started in 1997. Before he arrived:

1994: Aloha Bowl win, 7-4-1 final record. #23 in final AP poll.
1993: Beat #1 Notre Dame at Notre Dame. Beat Tom O'Brien's Virginia team in the Carquest Bowl. 9-3 final record. #13 in final AP poll.
1992: 8-3-1 final record. #18 in final AP poll. Lost to #12 Tennessee in the Hall of Fame Bowl. 1986: Beat #18 Georgia in the Hall of Fame Bowl. 9-3 final record.
1984: #5 in final AP poll. 10-2 on the season. Won at #9 Alabama. Won at #12 Miami. Beat Houston in the Cotton Bowl (one of the four majors at the time). Heisman Trophy awarded to QB Doug Flutie.
1983: #19 in final AP poll. 9-3 final record. Beat #13 Alabama. Lost to Notre Dame in the Liberty Bowl.
1982:8-3-1 final record. Tied #16, defending national champion Clemson in Death Valley. Lost to Auburn in the Tangerine Bowl.
1980: Pre-Doug Flutie. 7-4 final record. Beat #11 Stanford.
1976: Beat #1 Texas. 8-3 final record.
1968-77: 68-37 under Head Coach Joe Yukica.
1962-67: 34-24 under Head Coach Jim Miller. Beat #9 Syracuse in 1964.
1951-59: 49-29-3 under Head Coach Mike Holovak. Beat #16 Holy Cross in 1951.
1942: #8 in final AP poll. 8-2 on the season. Lost to #10 Alabama in the Orange Bowl.
Incidentally, BC was ranked #1 going into Holy Cross game, but they were upset 55-12, Boston College canceled a pre-planned party at the Cocoanut Grove nightclub. As a result they missed the deadliest nightclub fire in history that night, one that cost 492 lives and injured hundreds more.
1941: 7-3 final record. Beat #13 Temple.
1940: 11-0 final record. #5 in the final AP Poll. Beat #4 Tennessee in the Sugar Bowl.
1939: 9-2 final record. #11 in final AP Poll. Lost to #12 Clemson in the Cotton Bowl. Beat #10 Holy Cross during the season.

MakAWolfie said...

OK JOE JONES.... 3 bowl games in 13 years huh? Lets keep this conversation in what would be covered in "Modern American History".
The simple points that I was trying to make (1) If TOB was still at BC, no one from BC would be complaining. He built the "program" and ranked team you have in 2007. (2) Don't criticize/build up a coach (TOB or JAG) after less than 1 year of coaching. I understand this is pretty much worthless banter at this point, but it's going to take some time to see what either of these coaches can do with their respective teams (especially when you take over a team that had almost the worst penalty rating in the country.)

TOB left BC because he was limited. (Academically, recruiting pool, fan support, etc.) No logical person could say they would pass up an opportunity where they believe they would be more successful, and you can't say there isn't a better opportunity at NCSU.

Makawolfie 1
Joe Jones 0