As far as college athletes being off limits from criticism because of their age and amateur status...not buying it. These guys are playing at a high level and receive numerous benefits for their contributions. They sign up for this. And the scrutiny that comes with that -- on and off the field -- is all part of the package.
So if you are upset Saturday, go ahead and boo. At least BC fans are showing a passion for something and are in their seats. You can't boo from a tailgate.
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40 comments:
Couldn't agree more (see game grades thread). Having attended the game, Crane was painful, but we knew that. Though I love Jags and the coordinators, in this instance, I was perhaps more frustrated with the coaching staff for putting Crane in that position than anything else.
And don't even get me started on Blaudschun (who's a journalistic hack at best). He offer's this gem
"BC fans don't support the Eagles on the road. Not supporting them at home is even worse."
If anything, fan reaction reflected passion that so often is missing at sporting events. The booing was sporadic at best, reflected mental miscues that are simply inexcusable. And the raucous fans in the south endzone? About the furthest thing you can get to "lack of support.” I'll take passion over ambivalence any day.
If only I could get to the press box, I’d boo Blaudschun too.
There are much better ways to show emotion than booing players. I understand booing coaches, or even the whole team in some situations, but I think it's wrong to single out a player (in this case Crane). Everyone watching the game was frustrated with Crane and the coaches, but the way the boos came across was that the BC community had turned on one of its own in a very public way. I've never been in this situation, but i've seen how it can affect people once they're out of the lime light, and i don't want any part of it even though i'm entitled to it.
People like to talk about what it means to be a "BC guy" (at this point a little cliche, but still applicable), or use the phrases "ever to excel" or "men and women for others" when describing members of the BC community. When hundreds of people from the BC community single out a studet athlete and fellow community member, they have lost sight of BC's values.
I officially boo Munky (although I do so in a mature and respectful way, as reqested by ATL).
Perhaps we all should cease booing at games and instead yell something like the following: "I SUPPORT YOU, YOUNG LADS OF THE HEIGHTS, YET, TO BE HONEST, I FIND YOUR PLAY HIGHLY OBJECTIONABLE!!! I WOULD GREATLY APPRECIATE IT IF YOU WOULD REDOUBLE YOUR EFFORTS TO TRY AND ACHIEVE A BETTER RESULT IN THE FUTURE!!! THANK YOU!!!" That may even be too aggressive for Munky. Screw it - Let's just clap like nuts, no matter what. We may lose, but our players will be able to sleep at night. Ughh - Where did I put that bottle of JD?
Munky:
Wanting what is best for you team and being unfailingly (naively? perhaps not in this situation, yet) positive are two different things. It is not acceptable to me as a fan to watch a player squander opportunity and hold our team back. Is booing the best way to express this frustration? Probably not.
But at the heart of that frustration is the desire to excel, which you so rightly cited. When one player holds the entire team and, by association, university back, it is tough to remain silent and not be critical. Criticism - of which I believe booing is a form (as in hey, you're not doing well, please do better) - and classless heckling (in which a player is truly singled out and ridiculed; I never support this and have never heckled) are two different things.
Passion and criticism cannot be mutually exclusive. If they were, passion would be a synonym for naivete and not an endless desire for improvement and excellence.
eagle1--
You don't have to think in extremes. There's a lot of middle ground between booing a student and clapping mindlessly.
What exactly did booing Crane this Saturday accomplish? You feel better afterward?
I think chris crane i horrible to watch, but i dont condone booing him. If anything the coaching staff needs to be booed, they know what chris crane can do, and time after time call plays that crane cant execute. Either get the right personnel in there or risk getting booed.
Crane was brought in on a high school resume and is being asked to deliver. While jagZ (who has shown me nothing these past 1.333 years) was paid handsomely and doesnt seem to be getting enough of the blame. BOO JAGZ IF ANYONE.
norcal--
I agree with your comments. I especially understand the connection between criticism and passion. It's often the case that the most competitive people are the most critical. We have high standards at BC and we like to see those standards met. However, I believe it's the coaches' responsibility to criticize the players, and our "job" to criticize the coaches. (I know, tough distinction to make). In my mind, booing Crane after 2 series was not effective or "the right thing to do."
Munky:
"What exactly did booing Crane this Saturday accomplish?"
Did you not notice the 30+ points by BC in the second half? I rest my case.
"You feel better afterward?" Only marginally after each boo b/c (1) there is a small amount of satisfaction one naturally feels in communicating one's thoughts and ideas and (2) I believe it is a medical fact that venting frustration generally results in the release of endorphins. I feel much better after the game, when my booing has helped achieve a 30-point swing.
eagle1--
haha, I switched seats at half time, so don't take all the credit. Also, the booing started pretty early, and "better" results didn't happen until after half time (a.k.a. face to face talk with jags and logan). But no, you're right, Crane heard that you were unhappy and decided to play better.
I guess you'll take credit for Quigley's improved punting against UNC too.
Munky:
I definitely agree with your assessment of the situation. Ultimately, the responsibility here falls on the coaches. It's not Chris Crane's fault that the play-calls don't cater to his strengths. Philosophically, I would interpret my boos as a criticism of the coaching staff and its strategy. Unfortunately, that's a hard distinction for an observer to make when listening.
For the record, I wasn't at the game and could not have booed in any case. I would not have booed in the first half because the offense was given crap field position and the play-calling was strange, at best. But late in the second-half, after Crane had been picked off for the third time or after he'd thrown a pass directly to a defender - instead of tucking and running (his strength) - for the dozenth time, it would have been tempting.
Honestly, I feel sad that this is the state of our season. Looking around the conference, it seems that a league-average QB would be enough to get us to the ACCCG. The rest of our team looks, at this point (knock on wood), to be stacked. Instead, we're left to cross our fingers.
Munky:
You're damned straight. Someday, when Quigley is in the NFL, he'll be interviewed and recall "the guy in Section B up at BC who gave me the tough love I needed and booed at me after my second disasterous punt against UCF in '08. I owe him my whole career, and, without him, we never would have won the national championship."
Haha, I hope so Eagle1, I really REALLY hope so.
to be specific, it was not a constant boo...the boos came when 1) it became apparent the decision had been made to allow crane to run the offensive possession, and 2) when interceptions were either caught by ucf, or bounced off of their chests and hands...in both cases, booing was perfectly justified, and if crane can't handle it, pay 150k to get a top notch college education and stay off the field...thanks.
Maybe it's just the NY sports fan in me, but I have no problem booing an athlete who is seriously underperforming. Unlike most other endeavors in life, in sports, you ultimately either succeed or you fail (except, sometimes, in soccer, but that doesn't count). Athletes at a highly competetive level, such as D1A football should understand this. If a player is performing well below where he/she should be, they should expect booing just like they expect to be cheered when they succeed.
From my view in the stands many fans like myself were greatly frustrated with the lack of decisiveness from Crane, and were upset, but not the ones loudly booing. In my section at least, the booing appeared to come largely from the "down in front!" types decked out in all their Sox and Patriots gear. Just a perspective from my seats.
We've generated some good discussion about booing - which I have never been afraid to do. I just thought it was much too early after 3 very good to great years with Ryan and company. I have booed coaches much more than players, although how can you tell?
I booed TOB/Bible many times - or at least yelled at them because even I knew what play was coming - as did everyone else in the stadium. I remember years ago getting on our quarterback and staying on him - Jay Palazolla (can't remember the exact spelling. I thought he was better suited for running back or defensive back than QB. Turns out his father was sitting next to me and never said a word - classy guy. Another time I screamed at and booed Coach Jim O'Brien at a basketball game for the entire game - and I have a very loud voice - and I always had gereat (season tickets) seats. I know he heard me. I thought he was horrible - especially when he was something like 0 for the Big East his first 8 years. I booed him because we were the worst free throw shooting team in the league every year, and it just bugged me to lose a game by 8 or 10 points after shooting 50% or less. And he had no clue how to coach a big man. Long story short - his late wife was sitting right behind me this particular game. I said afterward to her that I'm sure he was a great husband and father, but a lousy coach - I still took exception to his poor coaching of fundamentals. Both timers I felt terrible afterwards.
Anyway, I'm long-winded - sorry. I don't want us to fall into the class of Rutgers fans who leave early in the 3rd period. When college players feel let down by their own fans, after practicing year round (becuase the more we pay coaches, the more players have to practice, etc.)then it becomes easier to mail it in.
Years ago when we were really bad - late 70's before Flutie, etc. - the fans would leave early and Big Richard(6'7") and I would stand up and yell at them on the way out - "Don't come back - we don't need you" etc. SCREW! And a lot worse.
Boo all you want, but support the team. Goodness knows we're paying enough for our seats. Jags has already said he's going to use Davis more - this whole thing is a process. Dissention within the ranks breeds a losing attitude, and bad results.
I'll see some of you in Raleigh in 2 weeks after the RI game, where the thashing of TOB and his Wolfpack doesn't appear so easy any longer. Still, we owe NC State a big one! We want to be 4 and 1 awaiting Virginia Tech - we owe them one also, and I want this team to be ready knowing we are behind them!!! Maybe we'll even fill all of the seats.
Go BC.
Just as a point of clarification (having actually attended the game): to boo or not to boo is a separate debate from what actually transpired in the stadium. At least in our section, Crane was far from booed indiscriminately. He only was targeted after breakdowns of catastrophic proportions (the intentional grounding from the 5 yard line- throw at a receiver's feet!), the mis-communication with Momah in the endzone, the numerous balls that should have been picked.
At that point, it appeared as if a change had to be made, or the play calling had to adapt. The boos that rained down (only intermittently, I might add) if anything, were an indictment of the coaching staff's inability to respond to that issue at hand.
Blaudschun makes it sound like Crane was harassed from his first in-complete pass: this is the furthest thing from the truth.
Frustration in the stadium was palpable when boo's finally erupted- it was only a matter of time.
Lets also not loose sight of the fact this is an isolated incident- it's not like this has really been an issue for the past few years (save for intermittent complaints about the kicking game or TOB's and Co. play calling).
I think I've stated my reasons for not booing amateur athletes in previous posts, so I'll just make this my last anecdote: I will never forget seeing a BC football player who had been booed and criticized more than any BC athlete I've ever seen the night after a game with his parents. Now, I had met this guy a couple times and didn't like him at all. I wasn't a fan of him as a football player or as a fellow student. But I saw him, completely broken down, being consoled by his parents, all alone after a football game (which was lost) filled with heavy boos. I have never seen someone so broken and dejected who wasn't mourning the loss of someone close or some other tragic personal event. Was it the booing? Probably not, but I can tell you the booing definately didn't help. I felt incredibly sorry for him and his parents, and ashamed that I had any hand in putting him down.
Now, I realize this is an extreme example, and the booing of Crane and Quigley doesn't compare, but that night I fully realized that these are my classmates, members of my community (Jesuit at that), and amateur football players. It was easy for me to boo him and not think about it, but the boos meant a lot more for him.
So that's why I won't be booing Crane, Quigley, or any other struggling BC athlete.
Quigley was instructed by the coaches to kick the ball away from the UCF receiver so there would be no chance for a return. As a true freshman, he probably hasn't practiced that type of punt very much and these were the first two times he had to do it in game conditions. He was attempting to punt in a way that was entirely foreign to him. Will he get better at that? You bet he will.
(From the Boston Herald - "Punter Ryan Quigley was instructed to punt the ball out of bounds and away from UCF’s excellent retuner, Joe Burnett. As a result, he had punts of 24 and 17 yards in the second quarter. Our purpose was not to let that kid return punts against us. That’ll change a game,” said Jagodzinski. “We had Quigs try to kick the ball out of bounds, but it went off the side of his foot twice. It’s a learning experience for him, too.” . . .
Would you have booed him knowing his instructions from the coaches?
I wholeheartedly agree with Bill here. While I understand they're "just kids", these are also young men who are preparing for the rest of their lives and/or another level of the sport.
In your job, if you mess up, your boss doesn't give you a big hug and tell you that you're just a fantastic guy. It wasn't like that in any internship I ever had. I didn't get a free pass, and it wasn't when I was getting a 50k/year scholly.
If you're a passionate BC fan/alum and the team is sucking a golfball through a garden hose, you should be upset. You should be unhappy. Just clapping non-stop with a smile on your face means you lack a central nervous system.
Munky:
How did your athlete respond after his evening of dejection? Did he (1)swear to himself never to allow it to happen again and rededicate himself to the sport or (2) jump off of a bridge? Not to sound too harsh here, but BC needs the type of guy who would do the former. Those inclined to the latter course are welcome to apply to ND. I think that I almost had a mental breakdown when I got a C in philosophy freshman year. I never got that low of a grade again.
In a related note, I just got off the phone with Fr. Leahy. In response to some alumni concerns about the booing of football players and in an effort to dissuade any such booing in the future, tomorrow, he intends to propose to the Bd. of Trustees that the BC mascot immediately be changed from "The Eagles" to "The Sissy Flower-Panties."
Are we sure Munky isn't related in some way to Chris Crane (or the two other mercifully booed athletes Johnny Oates and Nate Doornekamp)? That is the only rational justification for Munky's logically flawed arguments. Munky seems to have the mentality of Obama after he is justifiably criticized by McCain.
Though I disagree to a certain extent, Munky did play the devil's advocate articulately. No real need to pile on here...
Eagle in Brighton:
With all due respect, Munky is not playing the devil's advocate. A devil's advocate is someone who takes a position, often that he or she disagrees with, for the sake of argument. Munky really believes that booing is a "dick move" as he puts it.
generally speaking i think fans should differentiate between a couple things, namely execution errors vs judgment errors. execution errors are ok and can be fixed. after all it is college sports, not pro sports. throwing a ball short, overthrowing, stuff like that. frustrating but on the right path. judgment errors are a bigger deal and fans have a right to be upset about the performance (not the individual). throwing into triple coverage after staring a receiver down when the checkdown back was open is an example (crane).
a completely different issue is when a team doesn't show up aor quits...i.e. basketball team at times last year. this is absolutely inexcusable.
to be honest i am torn on this issue of booing. as someone with a background as an athlete and as a coach at the pro level (not football) and with very close friends who are athletes in different sports i think fans have a right to cheer, boo, etc when they pay for a ticket. i will yell at my tv if i am at home or on the road and bc is playing. however if i am at a game, given my background and personal relationships i will never do it. i have a sensitive spot for the athletes when things become personal, i.e. beyond "you suck (name)" or whatever. I think its really easy to pick on people who are out there competing. nobody is out there trying to screw up. there is pressure that is hard to explain. boo the performance, boo the play calls, just dont get personal. that is unfair.
but as an athlete, you hae to recognize that booing/reactions/criticism are all part of the business and like it or not you have to get used ot it. you just hope your home fans dont turn on you too often...
Luch, I am with you in as far as I would never jeer a specific player; throw a "you suck, Crane!" out there.
I would never personally at a game, or at a meet-up ever do that to any one of our players.
But I do say that BC fans who REALLY care, who REALLY do live BC football have a right to "boo" when the play is substandard on a consistent basis regardless if it's a mental error or physical error.
I think it's pretty stupid for people to boo, when the same people otherwise can't be bothered to stand up for a big play or even get into the stadium before the end of the first quarter.
Aren't many physical errors a result of a mental breakdown made either in preparation or during a game? I'm not talking about slipping on the turf or losing a grip on a wet ball. Perhaps a QB overthows a receiver b/c he hasn't practiced the throw enough or paid attention to a defense during film study. What about when Gosder was constantly jumping offsides last year? Mental or physical, it didn't matter. I wanted to choke him either way. It seems like a slippery slope to me.
I've never gotten personal with a jeer. I suppose that I would if I saw a lack of effort or Grade-A inexcusable stupidity. A late hit out of bounds that costs us the game or Marcus Vick stomping on a defenseless defender's head come to mind.
I'm sorry for the late response, I've been at an LSAT class all night.
1. Anyone at the game has the right to boo. I'm not debating that. I'm just stating my opinion (there's no need to boo a student athlete, in fact there are reasons not to), and supporting them.
2. If you screw up at work your boss yells at you. In this scenario, the coach would be the boss. The whole office (of hundreds of people) doesn't yell at you in unison in front of your family and friends. The same is true of the teacher-student analogy.
3. There's a difference between not booing a student athlete and blindly applauding everything.
4. You can get pissed off at a game or a player's performance without publicly chastising him.
5. I am not related to any student athlete that has played at BC. However, I do have a relative that has reached the highest point of his sport having experienced the lowest (or close to it).
6. The player I mentioned before kept playing, albeit without much better success (it was not for lack of effort).
7. eagle1-congrats on not getting another C after freshman year philosophy. While it's not relevant, we're all very proud of you.
8. All players realize booing is a risk associated with big time athletics, but that doesn't mean fellow "BC guys" should do it.
9. As I've said all along, booing doesn't actually accomplish anything except some kind of cathartic release of frustration. If you don't feel like taking a quieter, less public approach to venting, and opt to boo a student athlete, it's within your rights, I just don't think you're helping the situation.
Munck:
Re: #7, something tells me that you may not do so well on the section of the LSAT concerning analogies.
Wait until you get into the real world of law practice. Your days of being soft and cushy are coming to an end.
I thinking booing college athletes is totally unacceptable. From the perspective of faculty, these are our students. From students' perspective, these are their friends and classmates. For some in the stands, these are their children. And for all of us in the stands, these are young men who spend 40 hours a week without pay enduring pain and hard work just to entertain us for a few hours. We would also do well to remember that the least skilled player on the BC roster is a much better football player than any of the fans who think they have a right to boo. One last thought: we also shouldn't forget that these are just kids. Some fans booed Quigley after a bad punt on Saturday. He's only 18 years old. I think this is shameful. Boo the coaches. Boo the refs. But NEVER boo the players who work so hard to represent BC.
Professor Marling:
Come on. These kids aren't babies, and I'm fairly certain that clapping and tossing flowers onto the field probably isn't the best motivator for everyone, especially football players. Your background is in education, so, understandably, you've got a soft spot for students, but let's be realistic. When people boo, more often than not, they boo a result, not a particular person. If a kid or a coach has worked as hard as he can, then he should be at peace with himself and resilient enough not to let the boos bother him. If he knows that he may have slacked off a bit, then let the boos bother him and motivate him to try harder. How do you treat your students who perform miserably on exams because they went out the night before the test and got hammered at MaryAnn's? I doubt that you give them As and hugs. Check out today's Globe, in which Patriots' Tight End Ben Watson said the following in response to all of the boos heard during this weekend's loss to the Dolphins: "[The fans] expect the best out of us, which is good. When you have people with high expectations of you, you tend to meet those expectations as well. It's not a bad thing that they're disappointed." There you go. That guy gets it.
Also, I take issue with several of your comments:
(1) "[T]hese are young men who spend 40 hours a week without pay enduring pain and hard work just to entertain us for a few hours." As an initial matter, I've yet to meet a placekicker or punter that "endured pain and hard work." Also, you assume quite a bit about each player's motivation for wanting to be on the team. Some may actually enjoy playing the game. Others may enjoy being a representative of the school. More than a few get a free ride at BC for playing ball. Still others may just want to use the uniform to get the chicks. Let's not paint with so broad of a brush.
(2) "[T]he least skilled player on the BC roster is a much better football player than any of the fans who think they have a right to boo." Both false and, far more importantly, 100% irrelevant. If one had to be in better physical shape or better skilled than a player on the field to have license to criticize that player, 99.9999999999% of coaches, sportscasters, and sportswriters in the United States would be out of a job. Ex. A = Charlie Weis. Ex. B = John Madden. Did you really say that? I can't cook. Does that mean I can't complain to my waiter about my cold filet mignon?
(3) "We also shouldn't forget that these are just kids." The last time I checked, 18 meant "adult" in the U.S. Some of these guys are into their early 20s. If everyone is so concerned about 18 year olds being "kids," perhaps these kids are unfit to vote or serve in the U.S. armed forces, and new legistlation is needed that doesn't allow anyone under the age of 25 to do either.
(4) "Some fans booed Quigley after a bad punt on Saturday. He's only 18 years old. I think this is shameful." Actually, Mr. Quigley had two disasterous punts, not one. Personally, I shook my head after the first and probably only groaned audibly after the second. This goes back to what I said earlier about booing the result, and, if you've been following BC football, you realize that our kicking crew probably lost us games last year and kept us out of a BCS bowl. These were boos that resulted from cumulative general frustration with certain aspects of the team's play, going all the way back to last year.
I say use the boo like a scalpel, not a sledgehammer. Use it sparingly, but use it when necessary. Additionally, no one should be immune from the boo. If you stink, you need to hear it. If you lack the strength to handle the boo, then football is not the sport for you, and you may be better off spending your free time playing a club sport or engaged in non-competive venture (e.g., quiddich, if you go to Middlebury College; not a joke). Finally, let's not treat our young men like they're emotional creampuffs. Often, that only reinforces mediocrity or worse, and it certainly does these men a disservice by not preparing them for the real world.
eagle1--
The analogy of the teacher and the student is false. In that instance, if the student who failed was the player underperforming, the coach (in this case Jags), would be the teacher. There isn't a group of people to remind him of his poor performance on the test in front of his family and friends. You are not responsible for telling a student athlete how he messed up, in fact you can't. You can only remind him that he did mess up (which the coach will assuredly do himself). So again, what do you accomplish by booing?
As for the matter of age--yes, legally you're an adult at 18. I think it's fair to say that people mature both physically and emotionally at different rates.
Munky:
Teacher, student, what? I have no idea what you're talking about. Your prospects for a successful result on the LSAT grow dimmer.
"So again, what do you accomplish by booing?" I accomplish the act of communicating my extreme disapproval for the quality of the current play, with the hope that those having the power to improve the quality of the play, including coaches, players, and athletic coordinators, hear that message and are motivated by it to produce a better result. How's that?
eagle1 said..."How do you treat your students who perform miserably on exams because they went out the night before the test and got hammered at MaryAnn's? I doubt that you give them As and hugs."
munky said..."The analogy of the teacher and the student is false. In that instance, if the student who failed was the player underperforming, the coach (in this case Jags), would be the teacher."
I'll try to put it another way--The relationship between a teacher and a student is nothing like that of a fan and a college quarterback. In fact, the relationship between a teacher and student most closely resembles that of a coach and a players. It is the teacher's responsibility to teach, motivate, and discipline his students, just as it is a coach's responsibility to teach, motivate, and discipline his players.
Munky:
You're splitting hairs (monkey/munky hairs?) and over-analyzing. The simple point is that, as a general rule, poor performances caused by a lack of effort don't get turned around by coddling people. A football coach doesn't have exclusive license to praise or criticize the players on his team.
ordeagle, beat me to it. Matt changed into a Falcon's red tie.
Great work atleagle! Thanks.
Now I have another NFL team to root for. Just hope most Pats/Falcons games are at different times this year so I can switch shirts. Gonna cause me headaches with the better half staying at the watering hole when the teams play same day/different hours!
AguilaFan, I've seen this comment randomly pop up from you before. Are you using a funky browser that is cooking your comments?
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