This year confirms that coaching still matters, but when you look at NC State's struggles, you have to wonder what happened at NC State while TOB was there. When he left BC, there was a definite structure, consistency and of course a group of players that served as the foundation of the next two division winning teams. Conversely the roster that Dave Doeren inherited after TOB's stay in Raleigh lacks the same level of depth and talent. How did it turn out so differently for a guy like TOB who approaches things the same way? There were a few different factors.
Selling NC State in Ohio
When TOB took over at BC, he made Ohio and specifically Southwest Ohio-Cincinnati a recruiting focal point. He was a Cincinnati guy and over the years filled up his staff with guys who had roots in Ohio. The Cincinnati area had strong Catholic programs that became a natural feeding ground for his teams. We didn't get the state's five star recruits, but he signed plenty of solid three star guys who didn't get Ohio State offers. When Jags took over Nick Larkin, Clif Ramsey, Dejuan Tribble, Matt Tennant, and Alex Albright were just some of the guys who would either be all conference or future NFL players. All came from Ohio. Even though he brought Dana Bible, Don Horton and Jim Bridge with him to NC State, the Midwest guys never had the same level of success recruiting the Buckeye state. I don't know if selling a bigger, southern state school made it tougher to connect with Midwest kids or the staff decided to focus elsewhere, but the NC State roster doesn't have the same level of Cincy talent that BC had.
A Strong batch of New England talent
Regardless of what a coach does, he is still very reliant on local talent. It just so happened that the end of TOB's tenure in BC coincided with a bumper crop of New England prospects. Gosder Cherilus, Jamie Silva, Thomas Claiborne, Mike McLaughlin, and Ron Brace are all guys who probably would have ended up at BC regardless of who had been coach. I don't know if TOB lucked out locally in North Carolina or if you can luck out when there are so many other FBS programs in the state.
Age
Recruiting is a young mans game. Sure there are the recruiting nutjobs (like Addazio) who love to beat the bushes looking for kids, but most coaches really don't like it. And the travel and connecting with younger kids only gets tougher as you get older. When TOB went to NC State, he brought most of his BC staff with him. And most of those guys were old or getting older. Some of them viewed NC State as their reward for all the work at BC. I don't know if they had the same fire or desire to build something or prove themselves. Contrast that with TOB's first BC staff. It was filled with young and hungry guys who were out to prove themselves and find recruits. Five of the guys on TOB's first BC staff went on to be FBS head coaches. He didn't have the same level of coaching talent in Raleigh.
I don't know what else is going on with Doeren and NC State's struggles. As I wrote at the opening, coaching still matters, but I do think other factors impact how a coach succeeds in one place and struggles in another.
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After the debacle of the last few years, it is even more hilarious to me that there were actually BC "fans" who wanted TOB fired. Yeah, those annual 8-9 win seasons were just unbearable.
TOB wanted out of BC just as much as BC fans wanted him out - I don't think that is debatable. The annual WTF games were like clockwork and everyone saw we had the talent to take it to the next level, as Jags did with TOBs players. You can't compare Jags bad recruiting and Spaz just being terrible in every way as a HC with people getting tired of rinse, lather, repeat "we are what we are."
1331-
WTF losses were not peculiar to the TOB era. For example:
2007 (Jags): FSU 27, #2 BC 17
(FSU finished 7-6, unranked)
2007 (Jags): Maryland 42, #8 BC 35
(Maryland finished 6-7)
1993 (Coughlin): Northwestern 22, BC 21. (BC finished 9-3; Northwestern finished 2-9)
As for Jags taking it to the next level, I seem to recall the 2007 season ending with no conference championship and a third-rate bowl game. Sounds a lot like the TOB years, no?
Look, I'm not saying the TOB years were one extended ticker-tape parade, but you'd be hard pressed to name a BC coach since Frank Leahy who provided the kind of continued success that TOB provided. The last few years have just been a stark reminder of how the glass was at least half full with TOB at the helm.
Belated happy Veterans Day to all. TOB was a top notch coach at BC. Eight straight bowl victories and six straight over ND. Oklahoma has beaten ND once in fifty years. Has an SEC team beaten the Irish in the last fifteen years? Hoping Daz can take BC back to the ten win level TOB had them at. The AD at NCST. is finding out that replacing a good coach is not easy. UVA replaced Welch a few years back and has had little success since. I'd expect the same for NCST. The AD for the Wolfpack and the former AD at BC wouldn't have a clue as to what qualities make a good coach. Unlike Gladchuk who has hired four quality coaches in his tenure those two have an empty resume in that area. 2. Atl. shouldn't worry about BC getting a bowl if they reach the six win level. UVA is out, Wake and NCST. are likely out. Maryland will lose to VT which will be their fifth conference loss. Maryland will be bypassed by all other eligible ACC bowl teams. There should be a place for BC. Ideally vs. ND. 3. The conventional wisdom is that FSU wins out and heads to the title game. But the ACC title game may not be a win. VT has Maryland and UVA left on their schedule. It should be two wins. Plus they have a rest week in between. Duke is likely to lose to either UNC or Miami making the Hokies FSU's opponent. VT beat Miami in an impressive fashion at Miami. FSU won at home. VT played Bama even. If VT plays mistake free their chances are good. Most ACC fans don't want to see this outcome. They want to see FSU play Bama. If VT did win they go to the Orange and FSU will be a BCS at large team at 12-1. 4.Should future BC schedules have either Maine or Nova as an FCS foe at home? Should UMass and UConn be on it. Alternate games at BC and Foxboro. This would provide three non conference games in Boston yearly. Play one home and away with USC, OSU, Penn ST. Stanford or Northwestern. In the year you have USC, OSU etc at home you would have four non conference games at home. The next year would leave you with three. If the ACC is going to force you to play the Annoying Orange as your rival, then play them at a neutral site ( Met Life). Play that game either Labor Day Weekend or the Friday after Thanksgiving. Call it the Bernie Fine Memorial Cup. Anthony Weiner can throw out the first pitch. In the year the Orange were to be a home game you would only get three ACC teams at BC. Add in USC,Nova and UConn you have six at BC and UMass in Foxboro. Seven in Boston and one in NYC. The next year you get four ACC, Maine, UMass at BC and UConn at Foxboro. Again seven in the Boston area and the NYC game. This arrangement keeps Fine, Weiner, Spitzer out of the Boston area which will be a great relief to the new Police Commissioner.
You have to be reminded of just why TOB was brought to BC in the first place. The gambling scandal was devastating. O'B was seen as disciplined as a Marine. Remember also that there are no "former" Marines. He was brought in for a reason and may have overstayed his welcome. This was probably out of thanks for the job that he did in "treating the black eye" sustained by a very good coach who lacked discipline. Ooh-Rah for a job well done but maybe not as well done as some would like. Whatever you think, he did what he was asked to do. Six straight over ND, come on now "pat the 'jarhead' on the back".
With TOB, I always thought he wanted to stay, but the major issue was $$$. TOB wanted pay comparable to his peers -- which BC refused to give him.
BC cheaped out.
Sounds like one more bad GDF result.
Dabo Should be happy. Clemson just hired a new president from that shining beacon of academic excellence, WVU.
Wish Clemson was in the SEC.
Bama over ND in bowl. Excepting that who in SEC has topped IRish?
Tim, if you wanted to be mired in continued mediocrity, than TOB was your man. Those 7-8 win seasons concluding with appearances in 10th tier no-name bowl games against bottom-feeding mid-major programs (Toledo anyone?) were downright thrilling. It was obvious to anyone with half a brain and a set of eyes that TOB had reached his ceiling. There was no way TOB was going to take the program to the next level (division championship, conference championship, BCS bowl) so it was time to cut rope. If TOB never left, there is no fathomable way BC makes it to the ACC Championship two years in a row. Like I've said before, BC's motto is "Ever to Excel," and it should strive to do such. And for all the TOB and even Al apologists, if TOB was the savior, why did he fail abysmally at NCST, in a job that was probably easier. And if Al was such a great coach, why has not one of the 350 Division 1 programs hired him?
Bravesbill hit the TOB situation perfectly on the head. He was great for the time he was brought in. But he hit his ceiling. We've stumbled since then, but that is on the AD making poor coaching choices, not TOB being the pinnacle of BC coaching.
Bravesbill hit the TOB situation perfectly on the head. He was great for the time he was brought in. But he hit his ceiling. We've stumbled since then, but that is on the AD making poor coaching choices, not TOB being the pinnacle of BC coaching.
I'm not sure what SEC programs ND has played recently. Maybe the better question is what SEC team has ND beaten?
This website lists all of ND's bowl results. Of note, ND hasn't beaten an SEC team in a bowl game since 1991, and since 1993 ND has 2 bowl wins (for a 2-11 bowl record).
http://www.collegefootballpoll.com/bowl_history_notre_dame.html
Uh Ned, were you not watching the last BCS Championship? You know, the game where Alabama crushed ND, poured salt in Manti Teo's girlfriend's fake wounds, and made Katherine Webb a household name?
Bravesbill-
Mired in mediocrity? TOB's teams were ranked at the end of each of his last three seasons. We beat ranked teams like Georgia (#16 in 2001), Notre Dame (#4 in 2002), Virginia Tech (#12 in 2003 and #22 in 2006), West Virgina (#10 in 2004), and Clemson (#18 in 2006).
7-8 win seasons? In TOB's last 3 seasons at BC he won 9, 9 and 10 games, respectively.
Lousy bowl games? Sure, but you know as well as I do that's not the coach's fault. Bowl selections are based on travel reputations. Look at what happened to BC in 2007.
We'll never know what TOB would have done in 2007 or 2008 at BC. (You seem quite certain that there's no way BC would have won the division, but of course that's mere speculation on your part). Even if you're right that TOB reached his ceiling, his ceiling involved beating ranked teams, landing BC in the Top 25, and averaging 9-10 wins a year in his last few years. Name one BC head coach since Frank Leahy who has compiled that kind of record.
Tim, TOB never won 10 games at BC. Ever. My question to you is this: did TOB ever appear in a championship game or win a conference championship? Did he ever appear in a BCS game? 2004 was his best shot in a weak conference.....until one of his patented WTF games at home against Syracuse and its backup safety turned 4th string RB Diamond Ferri. And again, if he was the savior, why did he fail miserably at NCST?
@Bravesbill: You are a bit rough on someone who gave his all for BC. You are actually right in your criticism but so what. As is known, BC does not draw 5 stars. TOB was a good coach and not a great one. Ws are not the only indicator of success. What have his players become in society? Let's judge him for that. As Grantland Rice said so succinctly: When the One Great Scorer Comes to Mark Against Your Name, it Doesn't Matter Whether You Won or Lost But how You Played the Game. He deserves just criticism no doubt. In other words, get off the Leatherneck's A--. If you haven't served, then take a long walk off a short pier.
A lot of it was TOB's attitude -- very much a 'we are what we are' type approach and a little standoffish. Coughlin, who had some WTF games himself, said we're gonna win a national championship one day as his goal. We didn't, but he aimed high. Cowboy Jack had some awful teams to go with his great ones, but he never put BC down or said we had a ceiling. I like TOB, I think he was an very good coach and a great fit at BC, it's just that he deserves some criticism, that's all and it stems from his stance that BC had a ceiling he had reached.. Lord knows he did a great job turning us around after the gambling debacle.
I guess I'll be staying dry then JBQ, how about you?
braves-
I stand corrected. Spaz won the bowl game in 2006. So TOB only averaged 9.0 wins in his last three years, not 9.3. Still, that's better than your 7-8 wins estimate.
As to your question, yes, TOB won the 2004 Big East championship. Laugh if you want, but there is a trophy in BC's trophy case (literally). Yes, we all know the circumstances (3- or 4-way tie, I think), but you asked, so I'm answering.
Assuming you meant to ask about outright (non-shared) conference titles, then of course TOB never won one at BC. But then again, neither has anyone else. Not Coughlin, not Jags, and of course not Henning or Spaz. And yes, I realize BC has only played in a conference for the last 20 years, but if you look at BC's records for much of the 1950's, 60's, 70's and 80's, it's unlikely we ever would have won a major conference title in those years if we did belong to a conference (1984 is a possible exception, though even that year we had a WTF loss to a Penn State team that finished 6-5, unranked). So I guess I don't see your point. You're criticizing TOB for failing to accomplish something that no other BC coach has accomplished. So what?
The 2004 loss to SU was tough, but of course it didn't help that the starting BC QB was injured. And the Matt Ryan who started that game was not the same Matt Ryan we grew to love in 2007. At any rate, even if we had won, so what? We would have been the undisputed champions of a weak lame-duck conference. As UConn proved in 2010-2011, going to a BCS game by winning a weak Big East is no great accomplishment. So while it would have been nice to beat SU that day, I've gotten over it. You should too.
As for TOB's record at NCSU, I couldn't care less. I'm concerned with his record at BC.
I'm not sure how TOB is above criticism because he was a Marine but kudos for trying JBQ. Should I be insulted? As for you Tim, if you like mediocrity that's fine. Your choice. The nail in the TOB coffin for me was the Miami game. "We're winning aren't we?" epitomized what was wrong with TOB at that point. As the years passed, his attitude got worse. He never aimed for greatness, believed he was beyond criticism, and felt like he was doing BC a favor by staying. If you want to act like a tool to the world like Charlie Weis or Bill Belichick, at least win to back it up.
bravesbill isn't wrong, but i agree with Tim's broader point. i'd happily take 9 wins per season, especially after the utter train wreck of Spaziani. that being said, TOB did seem to (A) never aim for winning the conference (he would always make weird comments about how we were at our ceiling) and (B) want out by the end of his term.
ATL made a good point in his post - i think TOB and his staff saw the NC State move as retirement. they all got nice pay raises, lived in a southern climate and probably played a lot of golf.
hopefully Addazio can bring his own level of sustained success while sprinkling in the occasional season where we win the conference. thats the dream, isn't it?
@blist: A fair assessment is all that I ask. You hit it right on. You can tell @Bravesbill to "wear his raincoat". Semper Fi,
JBQ--I never said TOB didn't deserve credit for rebuilding the BC program or that he was not the right man for the job at the time. However, once he hit his ceiling he deserved to go for all the reasons stated earlier. As for the raincoat, this has probably been one of your most moronic comments ever: where do you get off implying that TOB is above criticism because he served and where do you get off assuming that I didn't? Stupid on every level imagineable.
Right about the marine. We hired a football coach not a "jarhead". Even if he were a priest, he still should have been let go. He was aloof. He had no fire. He had lots of great attributes, but without that ability to instill fire into a team, then the others get lost. Charisma is so important in a leader of young people. He did not have it. This comes from personal experience with a team member. Great respect all around and well taught, but never felt inspired.
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